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Trolls and Consequences: What Twitter needs to learn from Reddit (unlikekinds.com)
5 points by whalabi to web 125 days ago | 3 comments


2 points by JungleCat 124 days ago

Remember Appelbaum being called "sociopath, rapist, plagiarist"?

https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor/blob/master/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor.md

I remember asking on HN about anything that would warrant "plagiarist", the responses were a joke, one and all. I also remember asking who would take up the mantle of delivering the fiery talks calling people out to stop being complict in fucking murder, and the crickets likewise chirped.

The general pattern was people calling him a sociopath, based on hearsay, and excusing their own sociopathic actions they did in the present in full light of day with that.

What a shitshow that was.

Can you imagine someone like Jordan Peterson calling himself a prophet and ever hearing the end of it? Or posting something like

https://camo.githubusercontent.com/975ab8a2d84875793982a038eb12e82cab4d4b1b/68747470733a2f2f61726368...

.. if he posted about how "snitches get stitches", that would be fine, surely?

If that didn't came from the approved "side", it wouldn't fucking fly. It's the exact same pattern as with right-wing extremists.

https://camo.githubusercontent.com/4cd87603ec087765d992eb5a500500b8f941ccb6/68747470733a2f2f7062732e...

https://archive.is/VdYGT

oh, "we can conclude that". [0] People stoke on a mob, with constant, carefully worded appeals, and a wall of silence towards any uncomfortable questions, and then wash their hands of it. I don't care how much of it is stupidity and how much of it is conscious, if it behaves like nazi scum in practice, all the lip service and hair colors don't change a thing. The whole Appelbaum witch hunt was sociopathy on full display, weasel words, group think. That's all it fucking consisted of.

And all that is EVER used is asymmetric violence. Never direct rebuttal without twisting words, or sophistry. Prove me wrong. I'll gladly link the HN discussions I participated in and was treated like that exclusively. You can then say it's because I'm so "abrasive" and "caustic" (I know I am), and I can act surprised that that excuse gets pulled out.

And we both can ignore the people who made better points than me with nothing but politeness and respect, and got shat on, too. Here's someone that struck me as really solid. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=shava23 But the few adults simply didn't have a chance against the piranha mob. I know how I approach it isn't effective, but that's not my fucking job. At least I don't go along. At least I say no, and clearly so. I don't do it well, so I do it a lot.

Anyway, back then, giant swaths of the "tech community" put on an armband and started marching in goosestep, I saw it, and the CCC turned out to lack backbone, too. I mean, I don't give a shit about the circus in North America (you know, Americans having a pecking order based on sexism and racism is a total fucking joke in light of a war of aggression remaining unpunished, it's really cute in a nauseating kind of way -- there, I said it). But that it actually managed to compromise even the CCC, that stinks.

Here's something I saved because it seemed vaguely important:

> Moreover, I'd like to have all the extremist argumentation slapped the fuck down by intellectuals in public. Given the way things are going however, it's as though transparency and public discussion were anathema to those with power to censor.

> I mean, it can't possibly be that some jack-ass white supremacist, trash-ass ISIS goon, or wank-ass Hillary Trumponite, were hard to repudiate -- unless your own wack bullshit depends on similar constructions. Then it's really hard without stabbing yourself in the back.

-- from https://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10391247&cid=54083067

But that's the problem, the tactics of sophistry, alienated abstractions and "voting on what is true", and all that, many centers of power need them.

> The aim of totalitarian education has never been to instill convictions but to destroy the capacity to form any.

-- Hannah Arendt

To me, t's basically just the other half of pliers. It's the other side of the same coin. Decent normal human beings who can think honestly, or at least are still honestly trying, who fear nobody, and contort for nobody, are getting crushed in between them. "Both" (it's more than two, it's more Java style, with factory factory factories of totalitarian subcultures) "sides" don't have any value, and are arrayed against everything and everyone of value that's left. They use each other as excuses, like, say, Israeli and Palestinian extremists (I'm not saying they're all extremists, but pick some extremists from each side and you will find what I'm talking about). Against normal, pluristic individuals, who cooperate and argue, against anyone who isn't a totalitarian drone of whatever fucking stripe (like it matters!), a consumerist zombie, a slave. I mean, if I'm going to be an arrogant asshole, I might as well go all out and speak my mind fully. Actual thinking, the kind individuals do in their own heads without any extrinsic rewards or punishments (imagine that), and actual debate, which peers do without playing games, without tricks, without deception, without mobs playing tag team, without hooded executioners -- all that is on the way out, and fuck everyone clapping.

The question isn't why I'm "upset", I have mountains of evidence to back it up (that's not supposed to be an argument, it's a request to challenge me) -- the question is, why aren't you. You see, I expect these kind of tactics from racists and sexists and Nazis and whatnot. Such tactics, and the results of them, are the reason why they are to be rejected. It's not like any other group can use them against them and not become them. So I get kinda antsy when self-labeled warriors for progress, rather than regression, adopt them.

I don't judge the correctness of that by how many people agree with it. I judge people who are either lukewarm or wrong by how much I consider it to be correct. I'm open for argument, I don't count people, and if the argument starts with "many people think that", then that's a forfeit right there. You know, like an actually serious adult? Not just a polite lap dog confusing that with maturity as is the American style?

People who don't have that in them, who can't actually defend their position because it's not actually their own, don't like that. They would like to see it removed.

So I don't just disagree, I'm sick and tired of this shit and how it's still festering. It's anti-intellectual, and it's spineless. You make a desert and call it peace, and I'm calling bullshit.

--------

And while I'm at offending people, here's another thing I mean fully: many people today are against sexism or racism in the same way they would have been against Jews under the Nazis. It doesn't spring from empathy and courage, it springs from obedience, wanting to be belong, and wanting to be better than others without having to do anything, just by default, just for not being them.

I hate that with every fiber of my being, and I've been taking it seriously before some of those neo-fascist pseudo-leftist pseudo-intellectuals were even born. Because to me it IS painfully serious and real, I never can forget that in the country I live in, people were dragged from their homes, and smashed and burned and spat on. I will never forget that the actual idea was to not leave a trace of the death camps, that if the war had went differently, they would have rewritten history. Most Germans don't want to be "bothered" by that, I would fear for my soul to forget it even just one second. The ground should open up and eat anyone in Europe who does (including tourists and expats), triply so Germans.

When I was 11, I switched TV channels and saw corpses pushed into a grave by caterpillars. That and other things I chewed on, I will chew on them until I die, nobody can just "comprehend" it. And you cannot even fathom how disappointed I was when I later learned of something like the Vietnam War, and how I felt when I saw the buildup to the Iraq war before my own eyes. I can't live on this planet without struggling with that at every opportunity I have. We live in an utterly, thoroughly, completely fascist age. Arno Gruen was right, we do live in the age of Adolf Hitler. It metastasized, it got cleaned up, it got perfected. It's like fucking microplastics. It learned to smile, too [1][2], though the eyes remain dead as ever, for those with eyes to see.

Just so you know what crawled up my crotch, and why it's so persistent. Stop blaming messengers -- pull your weight, and other people won't be quite as sweaty and exhausted and wild-eyed.

[0] Of course, we cannot conclude that maybe not all Ghostbusters hate was real, that some of it was synthetic to be able to peddle a shoddy movie? Not even with the mockery of "male nerds" in the movie, that was put in it before anyone could react to it, while celebrating "female nerds" without noticing how one side of the mouth isn't quite in line with the other. And no, I don't actually don't want to belittle rape threats, I don't actually disbelieve that. Any and all actual people who do send something like that should go to actual jail. I mean that, too. But again, I'm not getting shamed into fuck all, ever. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, and the double standards are on full display, as are the mob tactics and sophistry used to defend them.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvd68ovD68s&t=5m44s

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gavNdxiyg0

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2 points by JungleCat 124 days ago

> On Reddit, if something hateful gets posted (and it isn’t in a toxic subreddit) others will indicate disapproval by voting it down, like the opposite of the Twitter favorite button.

And with the exact same mechanism, falsehoods are spread, and questioning them is punished.

> So if a comment has a hugely negative score, it’s clear to everyone that the community strongly disapproves of it. Even though the points have no functional effect beyond de-emphasizing and hiding the post, it’s an indicator that attracts scorn and causes shame.

For brownshirts that would be the sole signal, yes. Anyone else would take the context into account.

> One cannot receive beatings and be right, one cannot be dirty, eat garbage and be right.

-- Robert Antelme, "The human race"

I can also means "this many people disagree but can offer no argument, and are seeking to silence". Reddit removing individual counts for upvotes and downvotes is supposed to hide those who disagree with the majority, "winner takes all". It's disgusting.

Also, that place is just crawling with corporate shills.

> So if a user posts enough poorly-received content, this can be spotted easily, and they’re likely to be judged harshly or shunned by the community at large.

That's not actually true, I never see that happen. But it's interesting that the author considers this desirable. So basically, you get punished, with absolutely NO burden of any kind, any toddler can do it, and then others see that "social credit score" and treat you like a thought criminal, without even knowing who punished you for what.

Incredible. Also, no. No pasaran. Not one, not a billion. Not. even. one. inch.

And that's not even getting into Ghostbusters, and how sexists were used as a fig (pun omitted on purpose) leaf to smear anyone who didn't like the movie as sexist.

Bleh. Here's a sentiment on the matter that doesn't suck from start to finish:

> My reason for reducing my social media presence is the Like count next to every thought expressed. By adding a publicly visible number next to every expressed human thought, you influence behavior and thinking.

-- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19325515

Not to mention how it opens to the door to manipulation. No matter how you slice it, it destroys human thought, and it takes a while of that process to even arrive at an article such as this.

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I remember when Gregor Gysi called Max Blumenthal an antisemite, because he simply trusted the Wiesenthal foundation. Gysi doesn't even fucking speak English, he knows nothing about Blumenthal's work. Blumenthal quoted Yeshayahu Leibowitz, he didn't even condone his usage of the word "Judeo-Nazis", he just pointed out that that's how this venerable man put it, and that was "poorly received" by the Wiesenthal foundation, and that's that. Gysi just trusted the database, if you will, and I'm sure he's still convinced he's right.

That's the kind of brownshirt bullshit I won't be shamed into. As a German, I also inherit the responsibility of the knowledge of what it's like to be a Nazi, how Nazis operate -- not just what it's like to be a victim of Nazis, or how the popular hack fraud versions of history that focus on the differences between that and what we do, while skirting around the utterly gross similarities. I don't like what I'm seeing, and I don't say "brownshirts" to be polemic. I mean it. Not "literally", but seriously.

One measure for all, how about that? Either rape threats are just a result of being "poorly received", or votes and bans and whatnot are also not automatically correct. Either might is right, or it's not.

Another anecdote, when BLM was in everybody's mouth, I was a bit dismayed by some aspects, but generally supportive, so I followed one of the figureheads, Marissa Jenae. Next thing I know she posts this on her Facebook:

> "But a prophet is not a prophet til they ask this question:

> When shit hits the fan, is you still a fan?

> When shit hits the fan, is you still a fan?"

> Many have called me a prophet. Three things are true about all prophets:

> --They are under obligation, by God, to speak truth...all while knowing it will not be received or understood

> --Their work, by nature is divisive and correcting...no matter where they land, all people must respond to a prophet's words.

> --A prophet is never excepted in their hometown (place of worship).

> sigh

When I saw that, I shared the post and mocked it. I couldn't believe it, and frankly, it gave me goosebumps, the bad kind. What do you think happened to my social signal, was it received? Of course not, she blocked me, probably proudly so.

The shit we're seeing now, and the shoddy justifications for it, have been quite a while in the making.

More Camille Paglia, less victim cults with armbands.

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